Marital Decision Making and 2 More Down
The best I can say is that if for whatever reason things change you need to sit down and talk about it.Maybe one of you has changed their mind or new information has came out or whatever. Figure out how to make your new desires work in the current life plan YOU TWO have. Often this is the easiest answer. However if that doesn’t work you’ve got to go back to the drawing board. Once back to said drawing board it is time to figure out something both of you are happy with. When you go back to the drawing board it is important to think outside the box and question all preconceived ideas. The right balance of what both of you want which makes everybody fairly happy might be something neither of you thought of.
The thing about compromise is that it means you do not usually get exactly what you want. If it makes you feel any better your spouse isn’t getting exactly what they want either. I know this is a hard pill to swallow.
In making any relationship, be it with a family member, friend or spouse, work to some degree you have to subordinate yourself to the group’s interest. It could be going to a family gathering you would rather not be at, wearing the sweater grandma gave you, going to the bar a friend likes which you are ambivalent about or whatever. In a marriage or long term relationship the stakes are a lot higher.We are talking about where you will live, what kind of place you will reside in, how you will earn and spend, and other serious lifestyle stuff. It is a lot harder to suck it up and wear the proverbial ugly Christmas sweater for a lifetime than an evening.
I wish I could say you can compromise and it will always work out. Sometimes a spouse may not be down with changing the agreement you two made. If she wants to be the yuppie NYC urban dweller she has always been and you all of a sudden want to be a gun toting cabin dweller in Montana and neither are willing to make substantial accommodations the picture isn’t pretty.
Not that it is exactly helpful but my observation is that couples who are otherwise healthy and getting along well can figure out some sort of compromise. Conversely with the couples who can’t even have a rational conversation (or series of them) to work towards a compromise seem to invariably have other problems in the background.
We could not talk about this without addressing respect. We don’t always agree (and some of my whackier ideas get vetoed) but as a couple we have serious adult discussions about the pro’s and con’s of all manner of ideas. At least as often as not these discussions lead to some sort of action. The idea that I (or Wifey) could being something to the table and be shortly dismissed is simply not something which would happen.
I think a desire to share a life together are key. Now and again either Wifey or I come up with something we really want to do that is a game changer. (Thankfully I was a crazy survivalist before we got hitched so we agreed on most of the big stuff beforehand.) We don’t always see things the same way but stuff that is important to one is important to the other, if just because they are important.
Anyway I hope this gives some ideas.
Also I ran 2 more miles today with kiddo in the jogging stroller leaving 30 miles to go.
Feminism Screwed Everything Up
Alternate title: Time to offend everybody
I have been reading a lot of stuff about gender roles in the modern world on Patrice’s blog Rural Revolution. It was also in part by this this widespread article in the WSJ titled Where Have The Good Men Gone? and an interesting recent post (warning foul language and sexual content) by American Mercenary. Of course the my thoughts and writings are solely my own so please do not harrass Patrice or AM for me being an offensive jerk.
To start out I am in agreement with many of the basic tenants of feminism. Women should be able to pursue all manner of educational opportunities, work outside of the home, start and run businesses, not have to deal with abusive spouses or butt slapping bosses and all that stuff. Though not really an issue in the western world they should obviously be able to own and inherant property, sign contracts, vote if applicable in their country, be protected from violence in the home, have freedom to marry who they choose and divorce husbands they no longer want to be married to, have custody of children, get access to basic medical care, etc all.
The real issue starts with a lack of understanding the inherant trade offs involved in these choices. In my personal observation feminism has a serious case of “have your cake and eat it too” syndrome. It is true that women can rise to the top of the business world, date and have sex like men, have fulfilling relationships and raise children but they probably can’t do all of those things and certainly can’t do them all at once.
What I see is women who were told they can do everything. Invariably they often have to choose someplace to be mediocre. If they want to get to excell professionally then educational demands and working 60+ hours a week for years make establishing a meaningful relationship, let alone raising a family very difficult. On the other hand they can put their energy and time into home and family but if they are missing work all the time for this that and the other thing promotions are not going to come very readily. Certainly they will hit a “glass ceiling” which is another way of saying that the individuals who put in the time and have the capability get the promotions. Or they can spread their time and energy around and do fairly OK at everything.
[I have a female relative who was very successful in the business world. She did it with the same model that very successul men use. She went to college and started working in a large publicly traded company. She worked very hard and did some graduate work at a prestigious university then ultimately rose as high as one could in that company without being family. During this time she basically didn’t have a life outside of work. She did not marry until her 40’s and never had children. Only recently after a heart attack has she slowed down with work.]
In fairness the same is true of men. We can’t work 60 hours a week, run a scout troop, coach a volleyball team, regularly practice a hobby, do fulfilling things with friends and be a great spouse. There just are not enough hours in the day.
Additionally feminists seem to want to be able to pick and choose where they are going to be treated equally and where they should recieve special treatment. The issue of women picking and choosing where to be equals is well stated in this passage from Why Are Men So Angry? by Kay Hymowitz. “Women may want equality at the conference table and treadmill. But when it comes to sex and dating, they aren’t so sure. The might hook up as freely as a Duke athlete. Or, they might want men to play Greatest Generation gentleman. Yes, they want men to pay for dinner, call for dates—a writer at the popular dating website The Frisky titled a recent piece “Call me and ask me out for a damn date!”—and open doors for them. A lot of men wonder: “WTF??!” Why should they do the asking? Why should they pay for dinner?After all, they are equals and in any case, the woman a guy is asking out probably has more cash in her pocket than he does; recent female graduates are making more than males in most large cities.
Sure, girls can—and do—ask guys out for dinner and pick up the check without missing a beat. Women can make that choice. Men say they have no choice. If they want a life, they have to ask women out on dates; they have to initiate conversations at bars and parties, they have to take the lead on sex. Women can take a Chinese menu approach to gender roles. They can be all “Let me pay for the movie tickets” on Friday nights, and “A single rose? That’s it?” on Valentine’s Day.”
A lack of expectations being in line with reality seems to be a consistent issue. Again they can have just about whatevery they want but good luck finding EVERYTHING they want. A guy who can be John Wayne when a goblin jumps out of a dark alley is probably not going to turn into Woody Allen and talk about feelings all night long. Guys who are relatively successful tend to work much longer hours than starving artists. Conversely starving artists don’t make a lot of money. There are definitely some choices and trade offs to be made.
Gals also seem to want to be able to do whatever they want but have guys willing to romance and marry them whenever they are so inclined. They have changed in behaviors over the last couple decades and so have we. Coming back to an earlier theme they can’t pick and choose our characteristics any more than we can theirs. The guy who is happy living alone, has a fulfilling life and dates or hooks up with women having no real intention to commit to or marry them is a cultural countemporary to the gals we were talking about earlier.
As to all the complaining about my gender. Instead of “growing up” at a given age for men it seems to be more conditions based. It is my observation that many if not most men seem to rise or fall to the expectations they are put under. Single men, men in relationships, married men and married men with kids all have vastly different social/ cultural expectations. In other words single guys will act like well, single guys and they will continue to do so until they decide to settle down if that is at 20 or 35. Now we are seeing men staying single longer so you get the super bachelor pads, crazy party trips, etc that a 20 year old college student can’t pull off.
When it comes to choosing folks to date we all have to figure out what (both positives and negatives) is really important to us. Finding a person who has most of the good qualities you are looking for and none of the negatives that drive you nuts is the name of the game.
I think many of the liberal authors who write this garbage might just live in a whussified urban psuedo yuppy world that is totally disconnected with reality. There are plenty of men out there, they just might not frequent art galleries or wine tastings. Real men are out doing something productive or getting together for a couple beers after work.
Instead of whining gal’s should look at their expectations and the pool they are fishing in.
The Manslator
Maybe a bit steriotype ridden but funny all the same.
Gay Marriage
I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Western culture and traditions as well as the bible make that pretty clear to me. I also believe in Glock handguns, single malt whisky, cheap light domestic beer, bacon, salt and vinegar potato chips and catsup. I do not believe in car loans, Smith and Wesson (though the new M and P series shows some real promise) or Ruger semi automatic pistols, gin, miller genuine draft, BBQ potato chips or pickles. That is just fine. The reason it is fine that nobody really cares what I think. The great thing about America is that you can (or could/ should) be able to do whatever it is that makes you happy as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody else.
Doesn’t anybody have anything more important to worry about? Between terrorism, fuel prices, the destruction of the middle class, economic collapse, the creep of socialism into our lives and numerous other issues can’t we apply our time, energy and resources into more useful areas?
To me if consenting adults individual happiness and freedom comes in conflict with other people’s conceptual displeasure and desire to impose control on others that is always a non decision. So somebody doesn’t like the idea of gays being “married”, why the heck should they get to tell other people what to do? Lots of holy rollers (mostly the annoying Church of the Holy Visa TV types) will be up in arms but so what. They don’t get to tell people what to do. This isn’t Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, it is America and one of the many reasons our country is great is that we have freedom of religion.
If I choose to be a part of their church and consider them important/ wise/ whatever I will listen but otherwise I will ignore them. As far as I am concerned some other Church of the Holy Visa type has about as much right to tell me what to do as an Iranian Mullah. If you haven’t picked up on it they have no right to tell me, or anyone else in America what to do. If they really want to make me do something they can come to my house and give it a try.
The really dumb thing about this is that gay people exist and preventing them from getting married doesn’t change that. Gay people aren’t being strait now because they can’t get married. Unlike prohibition two or prostitution or gambling not even the most deluded totalitarians or religious zealots can pretend this affects the gay population of the US in any way. It is not like dudes who like dudes are living strait lives now because they can’t legally marry or strait people will become gay because it is legal to get married to somebody of the same sex.
For anybody that wants to go down the sanctity of marriage road I have three things to say: Kim Kardashian, internet ministerial services and Reality Television.
Next someone will inevitably mention the good of society or decaying morality or something like that. Those are what people say when they want to control other people’s behavior and can’t come up with a good argument for it. Preventing people in long term stable relationships from getting married in the eyes of the law is sure doing a bang up job of keeping up the sacred institution that is marriage; reference previous exhibits A-C: Kim Kardashian, internet ministerial services and Reality Television. Rubbish is what I say to that argument.
I do not see why the state is involved in marriage anyway. My marriage is between myself, Wifey, our families, whatever church we choose and God. The states only involvement is that I had to pay them for permission. (On a side note it amuses me in a sad way that it is harder to get a drivers license than a marriage license.) If someone else’s partner, family and church say two dudes can get hitched why should I care? What grounds do I have for it being any of my business anyway? Unless one of them is a kid or being coerced I say none at all. Seriously if people think something will make them happy, maybe for the rest of their lives I wish them the best.
If I were the dictator in chief with sweeping powers to solve these sorts of things my solution would be as follows. The government would no longer be involved with marriage. Aside from minimal record keeping I am not sure why it is at all now. It would from now on only certify civil unions. Any consenting adult can get a civil union with any other consenting adult or adults they wish. In a legal sense civil unions have the same powers and protections as marriages have currently. Now if you want to get married and a church or person with access to the internet and $20 wants to marry you then go for it. (Why somebody needs a license to marry people anyway? Especially since you can get one over the darn internet, that however is a whole nother rant.)
Personally I wouldn’t recognize Bob, Jill and Tom’s marriage at the church of the holy threesome but that is my right. They could in turn feel free to think my marriage is a crock and disregard it. This is after all a free country. Just leave people alone to live their lives.
Flame On!
Modern marriage, family, life and poverty
Occasionally I go out on a limb from my usual topics and today is going to be one of those days. It has been building in my head for awhile and I want to talk about marriage. I am going to try to do this in the most reasonable way possible without excessive criticism (a little funning is fair game) of anybodies position. So whatever your stance or lifestyle choices are please do not read into my words and get all offended. More likely than not what you read into this will have far more to do with you (and your feelings about your life) than it has to do with me.
I am going to start out by saying that marriage is a weird thing. It is weird because more so than government or money or anything like that it is an idea. What makes it so weird is that unlike government (which is what it is) or money it means very different things to different people. Unlike say a hundred dollar bill which, though of course it is relatively more valuable to an unemployed laborer than Bill Gates, we pretty much agree as the same value, the value peoples values of marriage vary widely. These views are affected by race/ ethnicity, culture, location, socioeconomic status and of course religion. Even the environment you grew up in can make a person who grew up 1 block away from another otherwise similar (on paper) person have vastly different viewpoints.
Some folks take marriage very seriously and others use it as something to get their 15 minutes of fame on who wants to marry a reasonably attractive nobody/ doctor/ midget stripper/ has been E list celebrity. Some people give it serious consideration and reject potential candidates who are close to, but not quite desirable and others seemingly put more energy into their choice of cars or haircuts. The bottom line is that a given marriage is worth precisely as much as the two people in it think it is worth.
Of far more significance (since say post WWII) a couple of big things have happened that really shook marriage. First the requisite education levels (I say education not schooling intentionally) required to support oneself, let alone a family have gone up drastically. An average 18 or 20 year old can’t support a spouse and a kid on the skill sets they have been able to acquire. This is quite a recent change as not so long ago getting married in their mid to late teens was quite common. This leads to even more prolonging of the awkward period called adolescence where our economic system incentivizes (and our social system reinforces) postponing coupling and the raising of children until which time you can acquire the skills to support them. This period just keeps getting longer as an internship/ apprenticeship, putting in substantial sweat equity starting at the bottom and learning or higher education is mandatory for having any shot at a decent economic future. I would wager this has in part lead to a corresponding increase in the average age people get married at.
Also since women have relatively recently entered the workforce their need to get married for economic survival has plummeted and with it the stigma of not getting married very early.
Folks are often socially active and dating for years before getting married these days. This means that lots of people are sexually active before getting married. (I see no point in getting bogged down on this though we will revisit it as it pertains to children and economics later).
Also women are now capable of physically having children far later and far more routinely than in the past. This is leading to some career women in their 30’s postponing marriage. That old biological clock has been slowed down.
I have personally found that men in their mid to late 20’s are in no hurry to get married even if they are in a stable relationship with a woman they plan to be with (and might even cohabitate with). Part of this could be that they are trying to get economically established and are not in a hurry to have kids. Maybe they want some time to pursue other goals. I currently have a theory that a lot of the reason these men are in no hurry is that they are not getting a wife in the most traditional stay at home sense. Since folks are getting married later girlfriends have jobs, etc which they typically do not, for numerous reasons, plan to leave any time soon. Since these women typically make less money than men going halfsies with no immediate plans for children might not look that appealing. Conversely for a lot of women then economics plus stability and womanly social pressures incentivize pushing marriage. However, Wifey points out that the social pressures and situations in larger urban areas are very different. She says in big cities often it is women who are holding off on getting hitched. I don’t know about that (she knows lots of these things) because I try not to talk to people from big cities.
Now we get to children and economics. The heritage foundation did a study on child poverty. Basically it says that if both parents have graduated high school and are married the odds a child will grow up in poverty are about nil. My initial thought was “turns out that if you graduate highschool, get married and then have children your odds of poverty are almost nonexistent. Go $&%(#ing figure”.
I took the time to read the study and it was interesting. They noted that most single mothers are not teenagers but in their mid to early 20’s and that typically they are in a relationship with the father. They do not “plan” to have a child but do stop using birth control which is essentially a plan to have a child as they are having sex. A friend of mine said “No girl over 20 gets pregnant by accident” and while I am sure once in a blue moon it does happen more likely it is intentional. Often the mother and the father are even living together.
The one thing that bothers me is that the way they get these statistics is IMO seriously misleading and designed to product shocking gotcha statistics. They only count the fathers income if he is married to the mother. Two parents living together raising a child will not have both of their incomes counted by this method of tabulation unless they are legally married, even if they are stable, the father contributes significantly to the household and has for years. Since the women in this group tend to have few marketable skills they don’t make a ton of money. The shocking statistics which come from this article are IMO seriously flawed and arguably intentionally misleading. They do note (I am sure accurately) that these relationships often break up and whatever informal support the father was giving may taper off. Despite my issue with the statistics this article is interesting, brings a lot of ideas and is well worth the read.
To me saying marriage is the magical solution to all of the problems of child poverty is seriously flawed. Why would we think the same couple in the same situation would act any differently if one Tuesday they got off work early and went to the courthouse to get married? Folks who barely know each other, jump into a relationship and then have a child, quite possibly without the father being on board beforehand, having given little consideration for how it will affect their future and if they really plan to be together forever are almost doomed from the start.
What we need to stabilize childrens lives is GOOD MARRIAGES and good stable long term relationships that act like good marriages. Parents, who sew some wild oats, party hard, hike the Appalachian train, try to make it on Broadway or whatever they need to do, then get their stuff together in terms of a career path, get to know each other, decide they plan to stay together forever AND THEN HAVE CHILDREN. What shocking, revolutionary ideas! When folks do these things out of order the results are almost always less than optimal. Sort of like baking a cake you have to do these things in the right order under the right conditions or the result is a big mess.
Values and good decision making are the answers. How to cultivate these is something I am far less than certain about. I think on an individual level it comes from parents and families. On a larger scale getting rid of disincentives (often women will qualify for welfare but not if the fathers income is counted) is a good start though that only works in certain socioeconomic groups.
The Family Unit
I’ve been reading a lot over the past month and a half or so. The way things have worked out I have started and gotten well into 3 books. I will finish them up in no particular order and then write about them. However that is not the point so to be honest I am not sure why I’m talking about it. Anyway I have been thinking a lot about the family unit lately. Mostly as a financial and decision making unit. The family unit means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. To most of America and Western Europe the typical family is a couple and their youthful offspring, the nuclear family if you will. In some cultures (Hispanic, South Asian and some others) a 3 generation household is the norm. In Africa as well as some other areas it is quite normal for what we westerners would consider a successful family reunion living under the same roof or in immediate proximity. I am going to use the term family to describe a group of people, generally related to each other in some fashion that lives together and at least in some respects makes economic decisions together. It could be a pair of lesbians, two adopted children, a lifetime bachelor brother and a monkey (beware, monkeys do not have souls and are NOT TO BE TRUSTED); the point is that is more about self identification than outside viewpoints. The family is so incredibly powerful yet we often fail to recognize it’s potential, let alone capitalize fully on it. It is powerful for so many reasons I don’t think I could list let alone discuss them all. The ones that immediately come to mind are cultural, lifestyle and financial. In terms of culture the family is probably the lowest practical level where culture is imparted upon children. It is also in many ways the most significant method of transmitting culture because young children spend (or should spend) most of their most key developmental time with their family. Even once kids go to school or otherwise get further out into the world they go there with the framework taught by their family. From religion to the way we treat others to financial habits. We reinforce the values we consider important through lessons and first hand observations. Want a family member to have good habits, teach and then model them. Lifestyle is a huge one. Probably bigger than values because while values are largely at least regional in character and it is just a question of how successfully they are passed on and ‘stick’. Lifestyle is however more mucky. Things like where the family lives, what kind of residence they live in, who works and how they work, how they recreate and such. Come to think of it lifestyle and financial blend so much together that they are difficult to discuss separately. This is I think the area where many people and their families have issues.
Not much significant stuff happens in terms of lifestyle without everybody, or at least every contributing member on board. That is just the cold hard truth and there is really no way around it. To those who have problems in this area I wish I had some more positive stuff to tell people who are having issues. Probably the biggest thing I have to offer is a reminder that you need to remember to get THE FAMILY on the same page not to get the family onto your page. Yeah I am talking to you big macho man or all powerful priestess woman. I am saying that while you are thinking about how to get everyone to do exactly what you want you need to be thinking about finding a plan that everyone truly supports. This might be a tough pill to swallow. However I urge you to remember that if there is no consensus NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN! So it isn’t that you are missing out on everything you want but that you are getting some of what you want. Also this is a great place to bring up that at the end of the day family, at least in the context I am talking about is a voluntary organization. Hopefully you are prudent and choose a partner (or partners) who have a big picture vision that is similar to yours. Be it having children, choosing where and how to live or whatever if everyone isn’t on the same page there is going to be trouble. It is easy enough to buy both grape and strawberry jelly but you can’t simultaneously live in an apartment uptown and a rural cabin. Some visions are mutually incompatible and well, that is a tough nut to crack. However once you find a vision that everybody is on board with it is easy to work towards and achieve that goal. Doing what is necessary to meet big goals is certainly possible and relatively easy when the family works together. Taking the hard steps like slashing living expenses, living below your means, aggressively paying down debt, moving to a single income family and moving to an area which better suits your desires (more conservative, more rural, whatever) are possible in a climate where the whole family is working together. Instead of working at cross purposes or muddling the waters everyone is working hard, saving and doing everything necessary to meet the goal.
Money is just an easy area to apply this to. Storing what you eat and eating what you store is another one, quadruply so if the spouse is the primary cook.
I can not emphasize highly enough that you need to get the whole family on board.
Hard Truths
If you grow up, get a skill (degree, trade, whatever), get married to a person you have known for awhile, then have kids your odds of economic and social success are pretty high. If you do things in the right order all, don’t spend more than you make and ideally stay married (this is where knowing someone is so huge) things will go resonably well for you. However if you mess up this order in any way the odds of success and stabilty drop. The more you mess it up the worse they get. I am not coming at this from a moral angle but a practical one. It is just cold hard truth. I know more than a few people who have intentionally or otherwise messed up the order. I really hope it works out for them (and for some it does) but it is definitely a lot harder road.
Homework Assignment Of The Week
Take your spouse or family shooting.
+2 points if they shoot the defensive weapons kept accessible in your home.
A Common Goal
Lots of folks have talked about how to get the spouse onto the preparedness page. While this is good of you have been married for a decade and all of a sudden want to get a gun or free up some closet storage space for food and water it does not deal with the big stuff. Exposing a spouse to your fears, concerns and such might help them come to terms with a pump shotgun in the hall and some spare food in the pantry but probably not with major financial/ lifestyle/ regional changes.
One thing that Dave Ramsey (I believe and thus will give him credit) talks a lot about is getting onto the same page as a spouse. Having a common goal is essential for anything big to happen. In this respect preparedness and finances are comparable.
Note that I did not say, how to get your spouse to buy into your goal. So often I hear someone who just can’t understand why their spouse doesn’t want to radically change their entire lifestyle in order to pursue a goal they have absolutely no interest in. Go frickin figure.
Expecting the spouse to dive head first into whatever goal you have is just not realistic. I would not be willing to radically adjust our budget/ financial plans for something I have absolutely no interest in and neither would anyone I know. If you would not be willing to put a lot of your money into say, training your dog to obey commands in Chinese (just to make an example) why would you expect a spouse to be willing to do the same for private party assault rifles and junk land?
Fundamentally relationships work when (among other things) two people seem to magically have entirely the same interests and goals (very rare) or they have relatively similar goals and can compromise. For example if I was not with Wifey (which is truly a horrible thought, I would be completely SOL) my sights would be set on about a 20×30 cabin (I know the exact floor plan) with a basement absolutely in the middle of nowhere. I would probably build it myself and just sub out wiring and plumbing. Wifey would probably lean towards a very normal home just far enough out of a medium sized city to have a few horses. Somewhere in the middle is where we will end up.
Note that I am not banging my head against a wall and getting mad at her because she doesn’t want to live in a wall tent while I build a cabin (which she might call it a shack) fifty miles from anything. I would like to live in a cabin far from anything because I am anti social, paranoid and a bit crazy. Wifey is none of these things which is good because it keeps me grounded. Anyway back to the point.
Lots of studies and stuff say that couples do better financially than single people. I think a lot of this has to do with the kind of people who enter into and stay in long term relationships as well as the elimination of duplicate expenses/ increase of household income. Also being part of a couple (unless the spouse is bad with money then heaven help you) also has the benefit of having their motivation to attain the common goal as well as someone else to be accountable to. A couple can make great sacrifices to meet a common goal and it is ok, heck it is kind of fun, because you are trying together to get to where BOTH OF YOU WANT TO GO.
How do you get to a common goal? Fundamentally you and the spouse are going to have to come up with some solution that leaves you both reasonably happy and your finances support. Much easier said then done. Just try to prioritize what is really important to you and be flexible on the other stuff.
The thing is that people thing of it sort of backward. They think anything less than the spouse fully and totally supporting whatever their dream happens to be is a loss. Try looking at it the other way. Simply put I do not believe that any major goal is going to be accomplished without both partners buying into it, thus making it a common goal. It isn’t that you are losing out on something by compromising; it is that something will actually happen. You’re not going to radically change finances, move, etc without the spouse buying into it.
But what do you do if there seems to be deadlock? This seems to happen when a couple are living a fairly normal middle class type life and one person (typically the man) gets into preparedness and all of a sudden wants to radically change things. I have empathy for both parties involved but that doesn’t get anything done. I think the biggest things in this scenario are first to not get absolutely focused on one specific goal and second to make the discussion cooperation, not opposition. Find something that you and the spouse can agree to and afford. Get creative and think of options the spouse might like and figure out a way to pay for it without cutting something they feel is important.
If the goal is to actually make something happen then I strongly suggest finding a compromise that both parties can live with.
Total Survivalist Blog 